1 00:00:09,080 --> 00:00:05,920 [Music] 2 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:09,090 welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast 3 00:00:13,910 --> 00:00:11,850 from Australia for science and reason 4 00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:13,920 [Music] 5 00:00:23,210 --> 00:00:16,890 [Applause] 6 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:23,220 [Music] 7 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:25,810 yes it's the skeptic zone podcast 8 00:00:33,570 --> 00:00:30,610 episode number 496 for the 22nd of April 9 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:33,580 2018 which add Sun is here with you from 10 00:00:38,970 --> 00:00:36,489 Sydney Australia and I think there must 11 00:00:41,759 --> 00:00:38,980 have been a vote or something somewhere 12 00:00:44,130 --> 00:00:41,769 that we voted not to have autumn this 13 00:00:45,570 --> 00:00:44,140 year autumn has been bypassed I think 14 00:00:51,869 --> 00:00:45,580 we're going to go straight from summer 15 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:51,879 to winter if we do ever comes and autumn 16 00:00:57,650 --> 00:00:53,890 will be scheduled for spring next year 17 00:01:00,690 --> 00:00:57,660 that's the way it seems anyway a long 18 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:00,700 long summer in Sydney Australia now 19 00:01:04,740 --> 00:01:02,170 really folks it is getting a little bit 20 00:01:08,340 --> 00:01:04,750 cool of these days big shout out to my 21 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:08,350 sister and her family who just landed in 22 00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:11,770 Reykjavik Wow jealous I'm so hello to 23 00:01:16,320 --> 00:01:14,890 all our Icelandic listeners if you see a 24 00:01:18,029 --> 00:01:16,330 strange collection of Australians 25 00:01:20,820 --> 00:01:18,039 wondering about it might be my sister 26 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:20,830 and her family having a wonderful time 27 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:23,890 in Iceland so what's coming up on this 28 00:01:27,749 --> 00:01:26,050 week's show we're going to kick off 29 00:01:30,809 --> 00:01:27,759 we're gonna kick off with our new 30 00:01:33,419 --> 00:01:30,819 reporter dr. Pauli with her random rant 31 00:01:35,940 --> 00:01:33,429 and this week dr. Paul II is going to be 32 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:35,950 chatting to John Cook from the George 33 00:01:43,430 --> 00:01:39,690 Mason University and he is studying 34 00:01:47,430 --> 00:01:43,440 climate change climate change denial and 35 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:47,440 reasoning how people reason themselves 36 00:01:54,260 --> 00:01:50,890 if that's the right term into denying 37 00:01:57,889 --> 00:01:54,270 climate change and how you can possibly 38 00:02:01,139 --> 00:01:57,899 reason them out of it what a fascinating 39 00:02:03,510 --> 00:02:01,149 study this is and it reminds me that 40 00:02:06,150 --> 00:02:03,520 when I think about it after all the 41 00:02:08,279 --> 00:02:06,160 years I've been looking into claims of 42 00:02:10,050 --> 00:02:08,289 the psychics and things like that and I 43 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:10,060 think honestly more and more it's a 44 00:02:17,970 --> 00:02:12,130 study of psychology more than anything 45 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:17,980 else because of yet - and anybody really 46 00:02:22,619 --> 00:02:20,170 has yet to discover firm evidence for 47 00:02:26,729 --> 00:02:22,629 the paranormal therefore it's hard to 48 00:02:29,250 --> 00:02:26,739 study that as a thing it's more about 49 00:02:31,170 --> 00:02:29,260 studying how people's minds work I think 50 00:02:33,580 --> 00:02:31,180 anyway let's apply this to climate 51 00:02:35,740 --> 00:02:33,590 change and I'm sure you'll find this 52 00:02:38,470 --> 00:02:35,750 interview with John cook very 53 00:02:41,259 --> 00:02:38,480 interesting following that it's a news 54 00:02:43,750 --> 00:02:41,269 about a vaccination clinic being run by 55 00:02:46,990 --> 00:02:43,760 Australian skeptics here in Sydney get 56 00:02:49,860 --> 00:02:47,000 your flu vaccination with us that's 57 00:02:51,610 --> 00:02:49,870 coming up in May more information soon 58 00:02:54,100 --> 00:02:51,620 they've browned off the show I 59 00:02:55,869 --> 00:02:54,110 interviewed Lauren Cochran Lauren 60 00:02:59,320 --> 00:02:55,879 Cochran is the Australian skeptics new 61 00:03:01,660 --> 00:02:59,330 social media manager reaching out via 62 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:01,670 social media via Facebook via Twitter 63 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:05,330 via anything she possibly can to spread 64 00:03:08,620 --> 00:03:07,010 the sceptical message and get some 65 00:03:11,620 --> 00:03:08,630 interaction and some comment and 66 00:03:14,710 --> 00:03:11,630 feedback I think you'll see that this 67 00:03:18,460 --> 00:03:14,720 position of a social media manager is 68 00:03:22,420 --> 00:03:18,470 that more and more important in in this 69 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:22,430 world and the online world in well many 70 00:03:28,210 --> 00:03:25,250 world a couple of notes before we get 71 00:03:29,979 --> 00:03:28,220 started if you'd like to keep up to date 72 00:03:31,990 --> 00:03:29,989 with what's happening with Australian 73 00:03:35,770 --> 00:03:32,000 skeptics go to skeptics dot-com today 74 00:03:37,870 --> 00:03:35,780 you and subscribe to the newsletter and 75 00:03:41,050 --> 00:03:37,880 that's will be posted in to your inbox 76 00:03:43,479 --> 00:03:41,060 posted sent he mailed into your inbox 77 00:03:46,330 --> 00:03:43,489 regularly so you know what's happening 78 00:03:48,910 --> 00:03:46,340 with Australian skeptics and also a big 79 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:48,920 shout out to my friend Mike Williams now 80 00:03:54,069 --> 00:03:52,370 for most of last year I had a regular 81 00:03:56,349 --> 00:03:54,079 segment along with Tim Mendham from 82 00:03:59,170 --> 00:03:56,359 Australian skeptics on Mike Williams 83 00:04:01,449 --> 00:03:59,180 radio show which was they call it the 84 00:04:02,949 --> 00:04:01,459 graveyard shift the midnight to dawn on 85 00:04:05,860 --> 00:04:02,959 the weekends a great show lots of 86 00:04:08,289 --> 00:04:05,870 interviews and fun and the Australian 87 00:04:11,020 --> 00:04:08,299 skeptics were regularly on that show to 88 00:04:15,009 --> 00:04:11,030 discuss everything from UFOs to monsters 89 00:04:17,620 --> 00:04:15,019 to spontaneous human combustion to many 90 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:17,630 many many many topics mike has been a 91 00:04:22,330 --> 00:04:19,250 bit under the weather to say the least 92 00:04:24,370 --> 00:04:22,340 he had summer some surgery lately and 93 00:04:26,409 --> 00:04:24,380 he's recovering so a big shout out to 94 00:04:28,450 --> 00:04:26,419 you Mike Williams thank you so much for 95 00:04:30,190 --> 00:04:28,460 having the Australian skeptics on your 96 00:04:32,770 --> 00:04:30,200 show and we look forward to your speedy 97 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:32,780 recovery we wish you well and hope to 98 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:36,050 hear you back on the airwaves soon and 99 00:04:41,589 --> 00:04:38,570 when you do the Australian skeptics will 100 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:41,599 be ready to to be part of your show once 101 00:04:46,930 --> 00:04:45,050 again and for those people in Australia 102 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:46,940 that was on the McCrory 103 00:04:51,220 --> 00:04:48,530 work here in Sydney that was on radio 104 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:51,230 2gb so yes Mike we look forward to your 105 00:04:55,570 --> 00:04:53,690 return stay tuned at the end of the show 106 00:04:58,570 --> 00:04:55,580 for another note from me about the cats 107 00:05:00,460 --> 00:04:58,580 hmm yes but now it's time for me to run 108 00:05:02,860 --> 00:05:00,470 down in fact I am downstairs I'll give 109 00:05:06,280 --> 00:05:02,870 you a heads up I'm downstairs I'm trying 110 00:05:11,590 --> 00:05:06,290 a new thing I've put the little 111 00:05:13,300 --> 00:05:11,600 recording booth up on the cat post yes 112 00:05:15,430 --> 00:05:13,310 really because the cat post is quite 113 00:05:18,900 --> 00:05:15,440 tall and I'm standing in the middle of 114 00:05:21,940 --> 00:05:18,910 the lounge room here talking into a box 115 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:21,950 with a microphone in it sitting on a cat 116 00:05:26,380 --> 00:05:24,650 post if you can visualize that so now 117 00:05:43,180 --> 00:05:26,390 it's time for me to walk over to the 118 00:05:44,830 --> 00:05:43,190 kitchen which is over there I'll make 119 00:05:48,110 --> 00:05:44,840 some smoked salmon on toast well I do 120 00:06:05,650 --> 00:05:48,120 that I hope you enjoy the skeptic zone 121 00:06:05,660 --> 00:06:12,720 yeah let's have a random rant 122 00:06:12,730 --> 00:06:16,250 with dr. Paulie 123 00:06:22,450 --> 00:06:16,440 [Applause] 124 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:22,460 [Music] 125 00:06:26,890 --> 00:06:25,130 I'm joined here today by assistant 126 00:06:29,170 --> 00:06:26,900 professor John cook from the Center for 127 00:06:32,020 --> 00:06:29,180 climate change communication at George 128 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:32,030 Mason University John is the founder of 129 00:06:35,860 --> 00:06:33,650 the award-winning skeptical science 130 00:06:38,409 --> 00:06:35,870 website and has co-authored several 131 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:38,419 books and climate change and has even 132 00:06:42,820 --> 00:06:40,970 developed climate change denial MOOC or 133 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:42,830 massive online open course at the 134 00:06:48,159 --> 00:06:45,650 University of Queensland he's currently 135 00:06:50,589 --> 00:06:48,169 the co-host of the evident squared 136 00:06:53,980 --> 00:06:50,599 podcast which looks at why science fails 137 00:06:56,439 --> 00:06:53,990 to persuade so safe to say John that you 138 00:06:58,480 --> 00:06:56,449 have a passion for fighting climate 139 00:07:01,839 --> 00:06:58,490 change misinformation and misinformation 140 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:01,849 in general yeah well it began as a hobby 141 00:07:06,430 --> 00:07:04,130 and then it just grew and grew until it 142 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:06,440 took over my whole life and eventually 143 00:07:10,870 --> 00:07:08,690 had me moving to another country so it's 144 00:07:14,589 --> 00:07:10,880 a bit like that xkcd cartoon where the 145 00:07:16,510 --> 00:07:14,599 the guys on the internet and the and the 146 00:07:20,740 --> 00:07:16,520 wife asks witty coming to bed and he 147 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:20,750 said someone is wrong on the Internet no 148 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:22,130 I have seen that one 149 00:07:26,620 --> 00:07:24,050 so I guess before we start talking about 150 00:07:29,010 --> 00:07:26,630 some of your latest work I just wanted 151 00:07:31,870 --> 00:07:29,020 to know a little bit more about the 152 00:07:33,909 --> 00:07:31,880 skeptical science website and I guess 153 00:07:36,399 --> 00:07:33,919 for our listeners too haven't been on 154 00:07:38,709 --> 00:07:36,409 the website it's almost like a one-stop 155 00:07:40,540 --> 00:07:38,719 shop for debunking just about every 156 00:07:41,950 --> 00:07:40,550 climate change denial argument ever 157 00:07:44,589 --> 00:07:41,960 uttered what inspired you to start 158 00:07:46,180 --> 00:07:44,599 skeptical science and and have you 159 00:07:48,670 --> 00:07:46,190 managed to keep it going for so many 160 00:07:51,089 --> 00:07:48,680 years what inspired me to stylet was 161 00:07:54,180 --> 00:07:51,099 having arguments with my father-in-law 162 00:07:57,879 --> 00:07:54,190 yes family can be inspirational that way 163 00:07:59,730 --> 00:07:57,889 a particular type of inspiration we 164 00:08:02,469 --> 00:07:59,740 would have our family get-togethers and 165 00:08:04,990 --> 00:08:02,479 one lunch we started talking about 166 00:08:06,430 --> 00:08:05,000 climate change and my father-in-law 167 00:08:08,409 --> 00:08:06,440 started throwing all these arguments 168 00:08:11,020 --> 00:08:08,419 against climate change and why it's not 169 00:08:14,290 --> 00:08:11,030 happening why humans are causing it why 170 00:08:17,860 --> 00:08:14,300 it's all a big hoax and I went away and 171 00:08:20,770 --> 00:08:17,870 started looking into the science of what 172 00:08:22,749 --> 00:08:20,780 the actual you know research found about 173 00:08:24,670 --> 00:08:22,759 climate change and I found that he 174 00:08:27,730 --> 00:08:24,680 actually turned it to be completely 175 00:08:30,459 --> 00:08:27,740 false it is real it is caused by acid is 176 00:08:33,490 --> 00:08:30,469 bad in anticipation of the next time I 177 00:08:34,430 --> 00:08:33,500 get together I did what I always do 178 00:08:37,430 --> 00:08:34,440 because I'm a 179 00:08:40,399 --> 00:08:37,440 imagine I started building a database of 180 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:40,409 every possible argument that he might 181 00:08:43,100 --> 00:08:41,130 present 182 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:43,110 I mean collecting what the peer-reviewed 183 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:45,210 science say about each particular 184 00:08:49,490 --> 00:08:47,250 argument over time I was building up 185 00:08:52,580 --> 00:08:49,500 this database because I just really 186 00:08:57,160 --> 00:08:52,590 wanted to win that next argument then I 187 00:09:00,170 --> 00:08:57,170 realized other people and also have 188 00:09:01,610 --> 00:09:00,180 cranky ankles or people that they get 189 00:09:04,130 --> 00:09:01,620 named just - is about climate change 190 00:09:06,560 --> 00:09:04,140 with that might also find this a useful 191 00:09:08,750 --> 00:09:06,570 resource so I published it online and 192 00:09:10,580 --> 00:09:08,760 skeptical science I guess overcoming 193 00:09:11,300 --> 00:09:10,590 that perspiration from your 194 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:11,310 father-in-law 195 00:09:16,310 --> 00:09:14,250 what sort of kept you keeping it going 196 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:16,320 all these years when I started skeptical 197 00:09:20,810 --> 00:09:17,730 science I was very conscious of the fact 198 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:20,820 then it's possible to get into this trap 199 00:09:24,980 --> 00:09:23,010 kind of like a hamster spinning in a 200 00:09:26,930 --> 00:09:24,990 wheel we're just blogging and blogging 201 00:09:29,270 --> 00:09:26,940 and throwing content down aha 202 00:09:30,770 --> 00:09:29,280 you know after years of blogging you you 203 00:09:33,470 --> 00:09:30,780 wonder what you got to show for it and 204 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:33,480 so when I started skeptical science I 205 00:09:38,450 --> 00:09:35,970 very consciously took the approach that 206 00:09:41,180 --> 00:09:38,460 rather than just posting blog post after 207 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:41,190 blog post rather I was trying to build 208 00:09:45,980 --> 00:09:44,490 up an encyclopedic resource so the whole 209 00:09:48,650 --> 00:09:45,990 website was structured around the idea 210 00:09:51,350 --> 00:09:48,660 of having each denialist argument and 211 00:09:53,300 --> 00:09:51,360 and then scientific explanations of it 212 00:09:55,490 --> 00:09:53,310 and then just gradually building up that 213 00:09:58,340 --> 00:09:55,500 resource to make it more comprehensive 214 00:09:59,870 --> 00:09:58,350 and and also up to date because more 215 00:10:02,630 --> 00:09:59,880 research keeps coming down the pipeline 216 00:10:05,290 --> 00:10:02,640 as I learned more about the psychology 217 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:05,300 of science - now I learned that people 218 00:10:11,470 --> 00:10:08,610 who reject science for ideological 219 00:10:14,300 --> 00:10:11,480 reasons whether it's political belief or 220 00:10:16,430 --> 00:10:14,310 religious believe there's almost no 221 00:10:19,490 --> 00:10:16,440 convincing them with evidence being 222 00:10:22,130 --> 00:10:19,500 aware of that when you do engage with 223 00:10:24,829 --> 00:10:22,140 deniers I find that it's actually good 224 00:10:25,610 --> 00:10:24,839 for your stress levels to recognize that 225 00:10:26,420 --> 00:10:25,620 you're probably not going to change 226 00:10:28,910 --> 00:10:26,430 their mind 227 00:10:31,250 --> 00:10:28,920 but other people who are watching the 228 00:10:33,050 --> 00:10:31,260 exchange they're your real audience so 229 00:10:36,230 --> 00:10:33,060 when I engage with deniers 230 00:10:38,180 --> 00:10:36,240 I try to use it as a teachable moment to 231 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:38,190 inoculate everyone else against their 232 00:10:42,680 --> 00:10:40,290 means information and you bring up this 233 00:10:45,410 --> 00:10:42,690 this concept of inoculation against 234 00:10:47,290 --> 00:10:45,420 misinformation a couple of times in your 235 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:47,300 conversation articles 236 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:49,250 and more recently you sent me through 237 00:10:54,639 --> 00:10:52,330 the your plus one article on this topic 238 00:10:57,130 --> 00:10:54,649 can you elaborate a little bit on this 239 00:10:59,610 --> 00:10:57,140 concept of inoculation against 240 00:11:03,070 --> 00:10:59,620 misinformation I've been doing a PhD 241 00:11:05,380 --> 00:11:03,080 over the last five years into the 242 00:11:07,900 --> 00:11:05,390 question how do we neutralize 243 00:11:09,790 --> 00:11:07,910 misinformation eventually I happened 244 00:11:11,290 --> 00:11:09,800 upon this body of research into an 245 00:11:13,870 --> 00:11:11,300 occupation which it turns out is 246 00:11:16,690 --> 00:11:13,880 actually over 60 years old it began 247 00:11:20,199 --> 00:11:16,700 around the 1950s and I think what 248 00:11:21,130 --> 00:11:20,209 sparked it was American soldiers being 249 00:11:23,250 --> 00:11:21,140 kidnapped 250 00:11:27,540 --> 00:11:23,260 during the Korean War and then 251 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:27,550 brainwashed with Korean propaganda and 252 00:11:31,389 --> 00:11:29,930 researchers started looking into how can 253 00:11:34,660 --> 00:11:31,399 you inoculate people from being 254 00:11:38,079 --> 00:11:34,670 brainwashed what they took was this idea 255 00:11:40,269 --> 00:11:38,089 this this metaphor of vaccinations we 256 00:11:42,699 --> 00:11:40,279 can vaccinate people against the disease 257 00:11:44,530 --> 00:11:42,709 by exposing them to a weak form of the 258 00:11:47,199 --> 00:11:44,540 disease and that helps them build up 259 00:11:50,259 --> 00:11:47,209 immunity so psychology researchers 260 00:11:52,449 --> 00:11:50,269 started testing could you inoculate 261 00:11:54,250 --> 00:11:52,459 people against misinformation by 262 00:11:56,800 --> 00:11:54,260 exposing them to a weak form of 263 00:11:57,910 --> 00:11:56,810 misinformation and they found it was 264 00:12:00,310 --> 00:11:57,920 actually one of the most effective ways 265 00:12:01,870 --> 00:12:00,320 of neutralizing misinformation we're 266 00:12:05,740 --> 00:12:01,880 actually designing an experiment right 267 00:12:08,650 --> 00:12:05,750 now testing the idea of inoculating 268 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:08,660 against misinformation across a variety 269 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:10,850 of topics including climate change and 270 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:13,730 vaccinations if it turns out that 271 00:12:17,740 --> 00:12:16,010 inoculation is the way to stop vaccines 272 00:12:20,410 --> 00:12:17,750 in half I think that would be a very 273 00:12:23,980 --> 00:12:20,420 poetic irony just going back to what you 274 00:12:26,139 --> 00:12:23,990 did in your during your your PhD or 275 00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:26,149 during this article that year you sent 276 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:27,410 me through and we'll put that up on the 277 00:12:32,829 --> 00:12:30,170 on the show notes you compare the 278 00:12:35,199 --> 00:12:32,839 effectiveness of inoculations with with 279 00:12:38,769 --> 00:12:35,209 conditions where the misinforming 280 00:12:41,260 --> 00:12:38,779 messages were left uncorrupted can you 281 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:41,270 briefly describe what you did in terms 282 00:12:46,449 --> 00:12:43,970 of how did you inoculate people against 283 00:12:48,430 --> 00:12:46,459 misinformation and then evaluate that 284 00:12:51,370 --> 00:12:48,440 that the effective study Nick 285 00:12:53,740 --> 00:12:51,380 inoculation yes sorry in our experiment 286 00:12:57,250 --> 00:12:53,750 well one of our experiments in my plus 287 00:13:00,290 --> 00:12:57,260 one study we took one of the most potent 288 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:00,300 forms of climate misinformation which is 289 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:01,890 argument that there's no scientific 290 00:13:06,910 --> 00:13:03,930 consensus on climate change because 291 00:13:09,770 --> 00:13:06,920 31,000 scientists have signed a 292 00:13:12,350 --> 00:13:09,780 statement saying that humans are at 293 00:13:13,970 --> 00:13:12,360 disrupting climate in my experiment I 294 00:13:16,190 --> 00:13:13,980 had one group where I showed them this 295 00:13:18,560 --> 00:13:16,200 misinformation about the 31,000 296 00:13:21,500 --> 00:13:18,570 dissenting scientists and what we found 297 00:13:23,270 --> 00:13:21,510 was the misinformation had different 298 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:23,280 impact on different types of people 299 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:25,530 people who were at the left-wing liberal 300 00:13:28,930 --> 00:13:28,410 side of the political spectrum it had no 301 00:13:31,310 --> 00:13:28,940 effect 302 00:13:33,560 --> 00:13:31,320 but people who are at the conservative 303 00:13:35,150 --> 00:13:33,570 end of the political spectrum you have a 304 00:13:37,910 --> 00:13:35,160 strong effect in lowering their 305 00:13:41,030 --> 00:13:37,920 acceptance of climate change that tells 306 00:13:43,970 --> 00:13:41,040 us that calm music nation does have a 307 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:43,980 negative effect but it works stronger on 308 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:45,930 certain people compared to other people 309 00:13:50,990 --> 00:13:48,330 and in particular it works strongest on 310 00:13:53,900 --> 00:13:51,000 political conservatives in another group 311 00:13:55,610 --> 00:13:53,910 in my experiment we inoculated them 312 00:13:58,580 --> 00:13:55,620 before we showed them the misinformation 313 00:14:01,160 --> 00:13:58,590 and the inoculation message was 314 00:14:03,620 --> 00:14:01,170 basically just explaining the technique 315 00:14:06,830 --> 00:14:03,630 that the misinformation uses to distort 316 00:14:08,300 --> 00:14:06,840 the facts we didn't even mention the 317 00:14:11,390 --> 00:14:08,310 misinformation will you mention the 318 00:14:14,150 --> 00:14:11,400 31,000 scientists argument we just said 319 00:14:17,390 --> 00:14:14,160 that one way to cast doubt on scientific 320 00:14:20,090 --> 00:14:17,400 consensus is to use fake experts people 321 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:20,100 who have the impression of being experts 322 00:14:26,300 --> 00:14:22,530 but don't have any actual relevant 323 00:14:29,510 --> 00:14:26,310 expertise and we used some examples of 324 00:14:32,270 --> 00:14:29,520 tobacco advertising that's used that 325 00:14:33,980 --> 00:14:32,280 same technique of fake experts to cast 326 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:33,990 doubt on the scientific consensus that 327 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:36,450 smoking causes cancer so that was the 328 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:38,810 inoculating message then we showed them 329 00:14:44,870 --> 00:14:42,450 31,000 scientists misinformation and we 330 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:44,880 found that after that group the 331 00:14:48,110 --> 00:14:46,170 misinformation was completely 332 00:14:50,540 --> 00:14:48,120 neutralized that had no effect and 333 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:50,550 didn't work whether people were liberal 334 00:14:56,750 --> 00:14:54,210 or conservative I was neutralized across 335 00:14:58,910 --> 00:14:56,760 the political spectrum and this is 336 00:15:02,180 --> 00:14:58,920 probably I think one of the most 337 00:15:04,070 --> 00:15:02,190 exciting aspects of of the research it 338 00:15:07,630 --> 00:15:04,080 means that you can neutralize 339 00:15:10,610 --> 00:15:07,640 misinformation even if the ideologically 340 00:15:12,770 --> 00:15:10,620 predisposed to believe the message and 341 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:12,780 whether people are conservative or 342 00:15:15,180 --> 00:15:13,570 liberal 343 00:15:17,100 --> 00:15:15,190 no one wants to be misled no one wants 344 00:15:18,270 --> 00:15:17,110 to be tricked but you can explain the 345 00:15:20,340 --> 00:15:18,280 techniques used to trick them 346 00:15:21,300 --> 00:15:20,350 potentially you can neutralize that 347 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:21,310 misinformation 348 00:15:25,230 --> 00:15:23,290 I wrote a follow-up paper after the PLoS 349 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:25,240 ONE paper with civil University of 350 00:15:30,380 --> 00:15:27,610 Queensland philosophers we I guess 351 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:30,390 offered some practical ways to expose 352 00:15:37,260 --> 00:15:33,490 logical fallacies and misinforming 353 00:15:40,050 --> 00:15:37,270 techniques using a practical parallel 354 00:15:43,290 --> 00:15:40,060 argumentation and the idea there is 355 00:15:47,010 --> 00:15:43,300 quite simple take the logical fallacy in 356 00:15:49,890 --> 00:15:47,020 a bad argument and translate that policy 357 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:49,900 or translate that logic into a different 358 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:52,570 contact to make the bad logic obvious 359 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:54,010 I'll give you an example because it's 360 00:15:59,160 --> 00:15:55,330 sort of what I've said sounds very 361 00:16:01,320 --> 00:15:59,170 abstract one of the most common 362 00:16:03,270 --> 00:16:01,330 arguments against climate change is that 363 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:03,280 climate has changed naturally in the 364 00:16:08,130 --> 00:16:05,530 past therefore what's happening now must 365 00:16:10,350 --> 00:16:08,140 be natural as well it's probably the 366 00:16:12,660 --> 00:16:10,360 most common denialists argument but if 367 00:16:14,070 --> 00:16:12,670 you take the logic of that argument and 368 00:16:17,310 --> 00:16:14,080 translate it into a different situation 369 00:16:19,620 --> 00:16:17,320 you see just how ridiculous it is it's 370 00:16:21,060 --> 00:16:19,630 like finding a dead body with a big 371 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:21,070 knife sticking out of its back and 372 00:16:26,730 --> 00:16:23,530 saying well people have died of natural 373 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:26,740 causes in the past so this person must 374 00:16:32,070 --> 00:16:29,890 have died of natural causes as well the 375 00:16:34,620 --> 00:16:32,080 argument commits the logical fallacy of 376 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:34,630 non sequitur or jumping to conclusions I 377 00:16:39,300 --> 00:16:37,210 wanted to know from from your experience 378 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:39,310 why do you think people are so invested 379 00:16:44,730 --> 00:16:42,970 in climate change being being a hoax and 380 00:16:47,690 --> 00:16:44,740 you and you did mention things like 381 00:16:50,220 --> 00:16:47,700 their own political or perhaps 382 00:16:52,350 --> 00:16:50,230 ideological backgrounds and and it's a 383 00:16:55,950 --> 00:16:52,360 bit evident in our current Australian 384 00:16:57,660 --> 00:16:55,960 and US government members but what do 385 00:17:00,510 --> 00:16:57,670 you think is motivating these people the 386 00:17:01,830 --> 00:17:00,520 most a great study published by some 387 00:17:04,439 --> 00:17:01,840 university Queensland researchers 388 00:17:07,620 --> 00:17:04,449 actually my colleague is Matti horns Ian 389 00:17:09,390 --> 00:17:07,630 Kelly building they did a meta-analysis 390 00:17:12,030 --> 00:17:09,400 or a survey of surveys they looked at 391 00:17:14,220 --> 00:17:12,040 all the different studies examining what 392 00:17:17,310 --> 00:17:14,230 drives people's attitudes about climate 393 00:17:19,079 --> 00:17:17,320 change and I found that there were lots 394 00:17:22,350 --> 00:17:19,089 of different factors age income 395 00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:22,360 education level so on but the really two 396 00:17:26,199 --> 00:17:24,610 big ones that jumped up like skyscrapers 397 00:17:29,289 --> 00:17:26,209 compared to all the other drivers 398 00:17:31,269 --> 00:17:29,299 number two was political ideology if you 399 00:17:33,940 --> 00:17:31,279 hold conservative beliefs you believe in 400 00:17:36,460 --> 00:17:33,950 small government you believe in free and 401 00:17:39,909 --> 00:17:36,470 regulated markets then you don't want to 402 00:17:42,249 --> 00:17:39,919 see markets like the fossil fuel 403 00:17:44,830 --> 00:17:42,259 industry get regulated you know like the 404 00:17:48,070 --> 00:17:44,840 solutions to climate change like trying 405 00:17:50,710 --> 00:17:48,080 to restrict carbon emissions and not 406 00:17:52,570 --> 00:17:50,720 liking the solutions people tend to come 407 00:17:54,970 --> 00:17:52,580 just denied it as a problem in the first 408 00:17:57,759 --> 00:17:54,980 place but the number one driver of 409 00:18:00,369 --> 00:17:57,769 climate denial is political affiliation 410 00:18:03,310 --> 00:18:00,379 what political party you belong to or 411 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:03,320 what what tribe do you aunty 412 00:18:08,799 --> 00:18:06,730 this driver of people's attitudes is a 413 00:18:12,039 --> 00:18:08,809 universal human condition we're all 414 00:18:14,739 --> 00:18:12,049 we're all prattling the power of social 415 00:18:18,369 --> 00:18:14,749 norming is way more powerful of them 416 00:18:20,889 --> 00:18:18,379 then we would like to think and so 417 00:18:23,889 --> 00:18:20,899 that's that's really a difficult barrier 418 00:18:27,009 --> 00:18:23,899 to overcome because tribal affiliation 419 00:18:29,529 --> 00:18:27,019 is just a super powerful psychological 420 00:18:32,529 --> 00:18:29,539 driver I have to ask this one have you 421 00:18:34,419 --> 00:18:32,539 ever managed to turn a true climate 422 00:18:38,889 --> 00:18:34,429 skeptic or how did you go with you with 423 00:18:41,169 --> 00:18:38,899 your father in law intronic member as I 424 00:18:43,779 --> 00:18:41,179 said it's almost impossible to change 425 00:18:46,060 --> 00:18:43,789 the climate deniers mind and I learned 426 00:18:49,269 --> 00:18:46,070 with my father in law that people whose 427 00:18:51,460 --> 00:18:49,279 attitudes are not based on evidence can 428 00:18:53,619 --> 00:18:51,470 be persuaded by evidence and so now I 429 00:18:55,930 --> 00:18:53,629 haven't changed his mind however there 430 00:18:58,180 --> 00:18:55,940 have been a few cases that so I'm not 431 00:19:00,639 --> 00:18:58,190 saying with this no hope and probably 432 00:19:01,239 --> 00:19:00,649 the most prominent example in my life is 433 00:19:03,369 --> 00:19:01,249 my dad 434 00:19:06,129 --> 00:19:03,379 so we also would have arguments about 435 00:19:09,430 --> 00:19:06,139 climate change and then after years of 436 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:09,440 arguing one day my dad said son I do 437 00:19:13,330 --> 00:19:10,970 believe that humans are causing global 438 00:19:15,580 --> 00:19:13,340 warming and I nearly fell off my chair 439 00:19:18,129 --> 00:19:15,590 and who knows I was halfway through my 440 00:19:19,690 --> 00:19:18,139 PhD into the psychology of denial so I 441 00:19:23,889 --> 00:19:19,700 thought wow this is a great opportunity 442 00:19:26,470 --> 00:19:23,899 to peer under the hood and so I tried I 443 00:19:29,350 --> 00:19:26,480 just casually did so what changed her 444 00:19:36,249 --> 00:19:29,360 mind then and he said oh no I've always 445 00:19:39,170 --> 00:19:36,259 thought this okay I guess I guess I 446 00:19:40,700 --> 00:19:39,180 won't get to peer under the hood but 447 00:19:43,550 --> 00:19:40,710 actually I think I figured out what 448 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:43,560 happened with him if GE is proud of that 449 00:19:49,310 --> 00:19:47,010 he figured out that it actually was a 450 00:19:51,980 --> 00:19:49,320 financial no-brainer for him to get 451 00:19:54,470 --> 00:19:51,990 solar panels on his roof with the the 452 00:19:56,090 --> 00:19:54,480 feed-in tariffs in Queensland a solar 453 00:19:57,680 --> 00:19:56,100 panels on your roof would actually get 454 00:19:59,990 --> 00:19:57,690 paid off within a few years and then you 455 00:20:02,690 --> 00:20:00,000 get free electricity he got solar panels 456 00:20:04,250 --> 00:20:02,700 and every three months he'd called me up 457 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:04,260 and tell me how much money he was 458 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:07,050 getting in a check from an electricity 459 00:20:12,020 --> 00:20:08,610 company rather than having to pay a bill 460 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:12,030 and there's a curious thing with the 461 00:20:18,170 --> 00:20:14,490 human brain when our behavior and our 462 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:18,180 beliefs conflict we experiences 463 00:20:23,660 --> 00:20:20,010 discomfort called cognitive dissonance 464 00:20:25,430 --> 00:20:23,670 and usually you know like we might 465 00:20:28,580 --> 00:20:25,440 believe we should be good people but we 466 00:20:31,670 --> 00:20:28,590 did something bad and we have to try to 467 00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:31,680 you know change our behavior to come in 468 00:20:36,650 --> 00:20:34,650 line with our beliefs but sometimes we 469 00:20:39,890 --> 00:20:36,660 can be behaving well but believing 470 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:39,900 something bad and in the beliefs change 471 00:20:45,070 --> 00:20:43,170 to become consistent with the behavior I 472 00:20:47,890 --> 00:20:45,080 think that my dad was behaving 473 00:20:50,540 --> 00:20:47,900 environmentally and then his beliefs 474 00:20:53,900 --> 00:20:50,550 evolved to become more environmentally 475 00:20:56,060 --> 00:20:53,910 friendly as well and it just goes to 476 00:20:58,460 --> 00:20:56,070 show that belief and behavior change 477 00:21:01,340 --> 00:20:58,470 aren't always a one-way street it can go 478 00:21:04,490 --> 00:21:01,350 both ways and so there's multiple ways 479 00:21:06,350 --> 00:21:04,500 not what have been used to changing but 480 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:06,360 people's behavior and their beliefs and 481 00:21:11,510 --> 00:21:09,690 perhaps just in on a fun note I guess 482 00:21:14,210 --> 00:21:11,520 what's your favorite climate change 483 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:14,220 argument to debunk my favourite argument 484 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:16,530 to debunk given that it's the most 485 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:19,530 potent argument the 31,000 dissenting 486 00:21:23,690 --> 00:21:22,410 scientists my PhD was not only focused 487 00:21:27,050 --> 00:21:23,700 on the psychology of denial 488 00:21:29,090 --> 00:21:27,060 it was also denial around one particular 489 00:21:31,300 --> 00:21:29,100 misconception which was that there's no 490 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:31,310 scientific consensus I did a lot of 491 00:21:37,790 --> 00:21:34,890 studies research testing the impact of 492 00:21:39,830 --> 00:21:37,800 communicating the 97% consensus the fact 493 00:21:41,830 --> 00:21:39,840 that 97% of climate scientists agree 494 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:41,840 that humans are causing global warming 495 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:44,850 and don't turned out to be one of the 496 00:21:49,940 --> 00:21:47,490 most potent statements or facts about 497 00:21:50,799 --> 00:21:49,950 climate change it's just a single number 498 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:50,809 communicate 499 00:21:54,070 --> 00:21:52,610 people the scientists agree there's 500 00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:54,080 overwhelming scientific consensus 501 00:21:58,200 --> 00:21:55,850 because most people don't realize that 502 00:22:03,190 --> 00:21:58,210 like when we published our first paper 503 00:22:05,590 --> 00:22:03,200 in 2013 communicating the 97% consensus 504 00:22:07,899 --> 00:22:05,600 President Obama tweeted it Prime 505 00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:07,909 Minister David Cameron mentioned it in a 506 00:22:14,289 --> 00:22:11,570 speech and a hell of a lot of media 507 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:14,299 attention and so I guess I guess it has 508 00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:17,450 been a long time focusing on this well 509 00:22:22,149 --> 00:22:19,490 you're doing really good work John and 510 00:22:23,980 --> 00:22:22,159 and I really appreciate you getting on 511 00:22:27,070 --> 00:22:23,990 to Scott with me all the way from the US 512 00:22:29,619 --> 00:22:27,080 wonders of technology and and discussing 513 00:22:32,259 --> 00:22:29,629 your work because I think it's it is 514 00:22:35,379 --> 00:22:32,269 something that we're all trying to do is 515 00:22:37,749 --> 00:22:35,389 escape --tx is to inoculate or 516 00:22:41,289 --> 00:22:37,759 neutralize misinformation but definitely 517 00:22:44,169 --> 00:22:41,299 having some science behind the best way 518 00:22:46,570 --> 00:22:44,179 to do do that will certainly help us all 519 00:22:49,580 --> 00:22:46,580 along the way so thank you so much for 520 00:23:18,370 --> 00:22:49,590 joining me thanks for having me Polly 521 00:23:24,700 --> 00:23:20,890 what you know huh I'm not the dreaded 522 00:23:26,590 --> 00:23:24,710 flu ah don't tell the anti-vaxxers but 523 00:23:29,500 --> 00:23:26,600 Australian skeptics Inc will be hosting 524 00:23:30,730 --> 00:23:29,510 a flu vaccination day for Sydneysiders 525 00:23:33,250 --> 00:23:30,740 at the East 526 00:23:36,250 --> 00:23:33,260 Sydney doctors clinic on Saturday the 527 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:36,260 19th of May from 2:00 p.m. you will need 528 00:23:41,260 --> 00:23:38,930 to register so we can keep tabs on the 529 00:23:44,140 --> 00:23:41,270 numbers and that link can be found at 530 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:44,150 skeptics calm day you look for the link 531 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:48,890 in this week's show notes the Royal 532 00:23:52,270 --> 00:23:50,330 Australian College of General 533 00:23:55,030 --> 00:23:52,280 Practitioners recommends that flu 534 00:23:58,120 --> 00:23:55,040 vaccinations should be timed to cover 535 00:24:00,610 --> 00:23:58,130 you during Australia's flu season which 536 00:24:02,710 --> 00:24:00,620 runs from June to September peaking in 537 00:24:05,530 --> 00:24:02,720 August the protection offered by the 538 00:24:09,250 --> 00:24:05,540 vaccination may begin to wear off after 539 00:24:11,620 --> 00:24:09,260 3 or 4 months so an injection in May is 540 00:24:14,590 --> 00:24:11,630 good timing to maximize its 541 00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:14,600 effectiveness while Australian sceptic 542 00:24:21,580 --> 00:24:17,330 Singh will be donating 30 vaccines to 543 00:24:24,250 --> 00:24:21,590 attendees you may be eligible for free 544 00:24:26,410 --> 00:24:24,260 vaccinations under Medicare those 545 00:24:28,900 --> 00:24:26,420 eligible include all children aged 6 546 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:28,910 months to less than 5 years of age all 547 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:31,690 individuals aged 5 years and over with 548 00:24:36,460 --> 00:24:34,850 specific medical risk conditions all 549 00:24:40,120 --> 00:24:36,470 Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander 550 00:24:44,350 --> 00:24:40,130 people aged 15 years and over pregnant 551 00:24:46,899 --> 00:24:44,360 women and people aged 65 and over 552 00:24:48,669 --> 00:24:46,909 the flu vaccination clinic will be run 553 00:24:51,690 --> 00:24:48,679 by Australian skeptics in committee 554 00:24:54,310 --> 00:24:51,700 members dr. Brad can Trish hand any 555 00:24:59,049 --> 00:24:54,320 unused vaccines will be donated to the 556 00:25:02,710 --> 00:24:59,059 community remember bring your Medicare 557 00:25:05,590 --> 00:25:02,720 card so Sydneysiders if you're after a 558 00:25:08,500 --> 00:25:05,600 flu vaccination this year and you're 559 00:25:10,860 --> 00:25:08,510 free on the 19th of May why not come 560 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:10,870 along to the Australian skeptics Inc 561 00:25:15,180 --> 00:25:14,450 vaccination clinic links on this week's 562 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:15,190 show notes 563 00:25:44,750 --> 00:25:40,490 [Music] 564 00:25:46,490 --> 00:25:44,760 hello hello and joining me now all the 565 00:25:49,430 --> 00:25:46,500 way from sunny Brisbane is the 566 00:25:52,190 --> 00:25:49,440 Australian skeptics social media and 567 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:52,200 community manager Lauren Cochran hello 568 00:25:56,780 --> 00:25:53,010 Lauren 569 00:25:58,700 --> 00:25:56,790 how are you I'm very well alone very 570 00:26:01,300 --> 00:25:58,710 well indeed I thought I'd give you a 571 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:01,310 call contact you because you've recently 572 00:26:05,540 --> 00:26:03,690 started in this position as a social 573 00:26:08,120 --> 00:26:05,550 media and community manager a bit of a 574 00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:08,130 mouthful for the Australian skeptics and 575 00:26:11,270 --> 00:26:09,450 I was hoping that you could tell our 576 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:11,280 audience a little bit about what you do 577 00:26:19,910 --> 00:26:16,410 and why you do it yes well I've been 578 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:19,920 welcoming up to 2 months now and that 579 00:26:24,050 --> 00:26:21,690 time has been looking at how social 580 00:26:27,740 --> 00:26:24,060 media for the organisation has been used 581 00:26:30,740 --> 00:26:27,750 in the past and strategizing about how 582 00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:30,750 we can better use online and social 583 00:26:36,650 --> 00:26:34,050 media to communicate with skeptics and 584 00:26:38,630 --> 00:26:36,660 the general public and I think people 585 00:26:41,300 --> 00:26:38,640 who certainly follow the Australian 586 00:26:44,930 --> 00:26:41,310 skeptics on Facebook strange skeptics on 587 00:26:47,450 --> 00:26:44,940 Facebook would notice especially in the 588 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:47,460 last six weeks or so a quite an increase 589 00:26:51,890 --> 00:26:49,650 in posting how do you go about doing 590 00:27:01,910 --> 00:26:51,900 your job where did you get all these 591 00:27:03,470 --> 00:27:01,920 interesting posts well so I just I find 592 00:27:05,120 --> 00:27:03,480 the articles as they pop up and think 593 00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:05,130 that's a really good one to share all 594 00:27:11,360 --> 00:27:07,290 tuck that away and share that in a day 595 00:27:17,870 --> 00:27:11,370 or two it's really a combination of 596 00:27:20,150 --> 00:27:17,880 hunting it down and dumb luck you don't 597 00:27:22,850 --> 00:27:20,160 just post purely skeptical things and 598 00:27:24,890 --> 00:27:22,860 I'm the old school and I think sceptical 599 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:24,900 and my mind is always racing for UFOs 600 00:27:26,930 --> 00:27:26,610 and talking to the dead and that sort of 601 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:26,940 thing 602 00:27:31,490 --> 00:27:28,770 but yep you're you're casting your net 603 00:27:34,610 --> 00:27:31,500 quite wide I think things of general 604 00:27:35,980 --> 00:27:34,620 interest to skeptics yes and one of the 605 00:27:39,670 --> 00:27:35,990 things at the moment that I'm really 606 00:27:42,950 --> 00:27:39,680 focusing on or trying to focus on is the 607 00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:42,960 the topic of vaccination because the 608 00:27:46,670 --> 00:27:44,450 Australian skeptics have their 609 00:27:49,940 --> 00:27:46,680 vaccination day 610 00:27:53,610 --> 00:27:49,950 and as part of that I'm just trying to 611 00:27:55,170 --> 00:27:53,620 increase the knowledge of what's in the 612 00:27:58,890 --> 00:27:55,180 media at the moment about immunization 613 00:28:01,260 --> 00:27:58,900 so skeptics can read these articles take 614 00:28:04,020 --> 00:28:01,270 it away with them and have to have 615 00:28:06,330 --> 00:28:04,030 conversations with others that might not 616 00:28:09,120 --> 00:28:06,340 be skeptics or might not understand at 617 00:28:11,070 --> 00:28:09,130 certain topics and how's the feedback 618 00:28:13,230 --> 00:28:11,080 going especially on things like Facebook 619 00:28:15,420 --> 00:28:13,240 and Twitter and things like that are you 620 00:28:17,310 --> 00:28:15,430 finding that we're getting when I say 621 00:28:20,540 --> 00:28:17,320 we're I'm speaking with my Australian 622 00:28:23,550 --> 00:28:20,550 skeptics hat on more engagement 623 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:23,560 definitely I am a data and analytics 624 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:27,010 endured so I sit there and I've got my 625 00:28:30,390 --> 00:28:28,930 little dashboard that I can see that 626 00:28:33,210 --> 00:28:30,400 we've got so many likes and so many 627 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:33,220 comments and this particular post that 628 00:28:38,970 --> 00:28:36,010 just go viral and I get you know do my 629 00:28:42,150 --> 00:28:38,980 little invisible fist pump and get quite 630 00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:42,160 excited when when something just blows 631 00:28:49,140 --> 00:28:46,690 up in comparison to you know a regular 632 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:49,150 everyday post well what's it was broadly 633 00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:51,090 what's the topics of people like to 634 00:28:56,790 --> 00:28:54,490 reply to or interact with definitely 635 00:29:00,600 --> 00:28:56,800 vaccination no that's that's that's a 636 00:29:05,250 --> 00:29:00,610 really huge one as well and also 637 00:29:08,490 --> 00:29:05,260 interestingly Alex Jones Alex 638 00:29:10,530 --> 00:29:08,500 obviously is us-based but he has such a 639 00:29:12,780 --> 00:29:10,540 massive rich in all of these lawsuits 640 00:29:15,750 --> 00:29:12,790 that are coming out that sorry the 641 00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:15,760 defamation lawsuits that are coming out 642 00:29:19,370 --> 00:29:17,890 of the woodwork at the moment I'm 643 00:29:22,020 --> 00:29:19,380 finding that those persons as well 644 00:29:24,750 --> 00:29:22,030 generating quite a bit of interest they 645 00:29:27,980 --> 00:29:24,760 he forgive me if I haven't got this 646 00:29:30,870 --> 00:29:27,990 quite right I think he's the one who is 647 00:29:34,410 --> 00:29:30,880 using the conspiracy theory that there 648 00:29:37,590 --> 00:29:34,420 are crisis actors for tragedies correct 649 00:29:40,890 --> 00:29:37,600 and now parents from Sandy Hook one of 650 00:29:43,530 --> 00:29:40,900 the Florida Clearview shooters and one 651 00:29:47,490 --> 00:29:43,540 of the other mass shootings as well has 652 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:47,500 come out and start started to sue him 653 00:29:52,530 --> 00:29:50,130 for defamation which is a good thing and 654 00:29:55,500 --> 00:29:52,540 I'm really looking forward to watching 655 00:29:57,210 --> 00:29:55,510 those 33 courts yes that's quite 656 00:29:59,680 --> 00:29:57,220 interesting because 657 00:30:03,250 --> 00:29:59,690 listeners may well remember last year I 658 00:30:05,650 --> 00:30:03,260 attended saikhan in Las Vegas and one of 659 00:30:07,690 --> 00:30:05,660 the windows in fact the window of the 660 00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:07,700 room music being used by the skeptics 661 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:09,770 guide to the universe overlooked one of 662 00:30:14,860 --> 00:30:12,890 the one of the areas where there was a 663 00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:14,870 mass shooting last year so that was 664 00:30:18,460 --> 00:30:16,370 quite eerie and to think that there are 665 00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:18,470 people Hawking this conspiracy theory 666 00:30:23,140 --> 00:30:20,570 around that there are crisis actors and 667 00:30:26,260 --> 00:30:23,150 it's all the makers it's quite insulting 668 00:30:27,910 --> 00:30:26,270 really yes and it's really good to see 669 00:30:30,130 --> 00:30:27,920 them getting there well hopefully 670 00:30:31,510 --> 00:30:30,140 getting their comeuppance in court well 671 00:30:32,890 --> 00:30:31,520 I'm not surprised this is the sort of 672 00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:32,900 thing you're finding that people there 673 00:30:38,020 --> 00:30:36,290 like to interact with now just briefly 674 00:30:42,210 --> 00:30:38,030 Lauren you're no stranger to the world 675 00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:42,220 of skepticism I you know I've been 676 00:30:46,300 --> 00:30:45,050 involved in skepticism for about the 677 00:30:48,190 --> 00:30:46,310 same amount of time I've been involved 678 00:30:50,530 --> 00:30:48,200 in social media oppose anything you've 679 00:30:53,290 --> 00:30:50,540 got this the other day that my first 680 00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:53,300 role in social media and online 681 00:30:57,820 --> 00:30:56,330 communications was 10 years ago and that 682 00:31:00,610 --> 00:30:57,830 was about the time that I started to 683 00:31:04,300 --> 00:31:00,620 think make me I'm a skeptic and then I 684 00:31:06,220 --> 00:31:04,310 found the Australian skeptics and 685 00:31:08,860 --> 00:31:06,230 started to go to the conventions and 686 00:31:11,230 --> 00:31:08,870 started to meet people in real life so 687 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:11,240 it's quite fitting now that I 688 00:31:15,550 --> 00:31:13,370 I am now working with the Australian 689 00:31:17,890 --> 00:31:15,560 skeptics yeah I think the first time I 690 00:31:20,620 --> 00:31:17,900 met you is in Canberra Australian 691 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:20,630 skeptics convention and people may 692 00:31:27,370 --> 00:31:25,370 remember you or may like to know that in 693 00:31:29,020 --> 00:31:27,380 my documentary I made a few years back 694 00:31:31,090 --> 00:31:29,030 called the vaccination Chronicles right 695 00:31:33,610 --> 00:31:31,100 at the beginning of the movie there's a 696 00:31:35,650 --> 00:31:33,620 little the musical theme and there's a 697 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:35,660 this wonderful mom in the playground 698 00:31:46,290 --> 00:31:37,850 were the two tiny little kids running 699 00:31:50,790 --> 00:31:48,840 it's a wonderful little time capsule 700 00:31:53,140 --> 00:31:50,800 capsule and at the end of the 701 00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:53,150 documentary you can be seen where we 702 00:31:57,100 --> 00:31:55,370 interviewed you about your feelings 703 00:31:58,840 --> 00:31:57,110 about it but I always like looking at 704 00:32:00,460 --> 00:31:58,850 the beginning because we found a nice 705 00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:00,470 little parking and your daughters 706 00:32:04,510 --> 00:32:02,210 running around going up the slippery dip 707 00:32:07,690 --> 00:32:04,520 and I think it's just a wonderful little 708 00:32:09,430 --> 00:32:07,700 segment yes yes it's very cute to see 709 00:32:11,020 --> 00:32:09,440 both of them looking so chubby cheeked 710 00:32:14,470 --> 00:32:11,030 and and happy 711 00:32:18,430 --> 00:32:14,480 yes not so little anymore 712 00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:18,440 Lorna it's great to have you working for 713 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:20,330 the Australian skeptics in this capacity 714 00:32:26,170 --> 00:32:23,330 and as I know from your reports the 715 00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:26,180 increase in now interacting or 716 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:27,770 interactivity or I don't know how you'd 717 00:32:34,450 --> 00:32:31,250 phrase that exactly our feedback and our 718 00:32:37,870 --> 00:32:34,460 online presence has been helped even at 719 00:32:39,910 --> 00:32:37,880 this early stage and what's the idea 720 00:32:42,820 --> 00:32:39,920 going forward what would what do you 721 00:32:44,170 --> 00:32:42,830 foresee happening well I have to keep a 722 00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:44,180 few things under my hat 723 00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:48,170 reel it in time but I do think that it's 724 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:50,210 a sign of a forward-thinking skeptical 725 00:32:55,270 --> 00:32:52,610 organization to appoint a dedicated 726 00:32:57,070 --> 00:32:55,280 social media person because volunteer 727 00:32:59,080 --> 00:32:57,080 committee members like yourself you've 728 00:33:00,670 --> 00:32:59,090 got lives you've got committee meetings 729 00:33:03,310 --> 00:33:00,680 and subcommittee meetings and all of 730 00:33:05,590 --> 00:33:03,320 that stuff that goes with it so to keep 731 00:33:07,900 --> 00:33:05,600 social media channels running and to 732 00:33:11,050 --> 00:33:07,910 think strategically about what can we do 733 00:33:12,610 --> 00:33:11,060 next that's a big ask for a volunteer to 734 00:33:13,870 --> 00:33:12,620 do in amongst everything else that 735 00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:13,880 they've got going on in their lives and 736 00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:15,170 I guess that's how I fit into the 737 00:33:20,890 --> 00:33:18,530 picture I can be the eyes mouth and ears 738 00:33:23,890 --> 00:33:20,900 of the organization while the committee 739 00:33:26,020 --> 00:33:23,900 does all of the important stuff and and 740 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:26,030 find some balance in their lives well 741 00:33:33,580 --> 00:33:30,410 I'm looking at how we can better utilize 742 00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:33,590 our existing social media channels I'm 743 00:33:38,590 --> 00:33:36,050 also looking at can we can we can we 744 00:33:41,740 --> 00:33:38,600 look at other channels can we reach out 745 00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:41,750 to the general public in different ways 746 00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:44,930 on a couple of social media networks 747 00:33:49,870 --> 00:33:47,690 around but Instagram or snapchat how can 748 00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:49,880 we use platforms like that to 749 00:33:54,610 --> 00:33:52,370 communicate a skeptical message I think 750 00:33:57,820 --> 00:33:54,620 it's absolutely in this day and age loan 751 00:34:01,060 --> 00:33:57,830 I think this is absolutely vital and I 752 00:34:03,460 --> 00:34:01,070 was just flashed an old memory flashed 753 00:34:04,870 --> 00:34:03,470 across my mind some years back you and I 754 00:34:06,190 --> 00:34:04,880 were together and we were doing 755 00:34:08,230 --> 00:34:06,200 something and I was trying to look up 756 00:34:10,149 --> 00:34:08,240 something on my iPad on my iPhone and I 757 00:34:11,470 --> 00:34:10,159 was having trouble can you grabbed it 758 00:34:16,540 --> 00:34:11,480 off me and said here give it to a 759 00:34:19,899 --> 00:34:16,550 millennial also I think I'm technically 760 00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:19,909 classes as any you'll what now as any 761 00:34:24,100 --> 00:34:23,690 old words though with an ex apparently 762 00:34:28,540 --> 00:34:24,110 where 763 00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:28,550 and 1983 764 00:34:35,770 --> 00:34:31,130 good grief so people can surmise my age 765 00:34:38,350 --> 00:34:35,780 from that all these terms it's a bit too 766 00:34:39,730 --> 00:34:38,360 much lordy yes thank you so much for 767 00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:39,740 your work so far it's great to have you 768 00:34:44,650 --> 00:34:42,170 on board and and again I think we're 769 00:34:46,810 --> 00:34:44,660 we're seeing the results and folks out 770 00:34:48,370 --> 00:34:46,820 there who are involved in skeptical 771 00:34:51,250 --> 00:34:48,380 movements around the world if you don't 772 00:34:52,810 --> 00:34:51,260 have a dedicated media manager it's 773 00:34:53,650 --> 00:34:52,820 something you should look into because I 774 00:34:55,660 --> 00:34:53,660 think so father 775 00:34:58,780 --> 00:34:55,670 the Australian skeptics are noticing the 776 00:35:01,510 --> 00:34:58,790 benefits Lauren Cochrane I look forward 777 00:35:02,070 --> 00:35:01,520 to our next meeting but for now thank 778 00:35:17,850 --> 00:35:02,080 you very much 779 00:35:35,660 --> 00:35:30,040 [Music] 780 00:35:39,599 --> 00:35:35,670 skeptical 20:18 conference registration 781 00:35:45,250 --> 00:35:42,700 registration for sceptical 2018 782 00:35:47,589 --> 00:35:45,260 conference the 9th Northern California 783 00:35:48,690 --> 00:35:47,599 gathering on science and skepticism is 784 00:35:51,370 --> 00:35:48,700 now open 785 00:35:54,220 --> 00:35:51,380 skeptical is excited to bring a stellar 786 00:35:57,309 --> 00:35:54,230 list of speakers on timely and important 787 00:35:59,380 --> 00:35:57,319 topics to you this June this year's 788 00:36:02,710 --> 00:35:59,390 event will be held at the Shattuck Hotel 789 00:36:05,799 --> 00:36:02,720 Plaza in Berkeley California on Sunday 790 00:36:08,020 --> 00:36:05,809 the 10th of June 2018 the diverse 791 00:36:10,620 --> 00:36:08,030 speakers will give you tools to 792 00:36:12,849 --> 00:36:10,630 understand bad science and fake views 793 00:36:15,339 --> 00:36:12,859 enlighten you about homelessness and 794 00:36:17,859 --> 00:36:15,349 artificial intelligence protect your 795 00:36:20,700 --> 00:36:17,869 children from being hacked and maybe 796 00:36:23,020 --> 00:36:20,710 even by being abducted by aliens 797 00:36:24,809 --> 00:36:23,030 information on the speakers and their 798 00:36:30,220 --> 00:36:24,819 topics can be found at the website 799 00:36:33,220 --> 00:36:30,230 skeptic Alcon calm skeptical work hard 800 00:36:35,829 --> 00:36:33,230 to make this a thought-provoking timely 801 00:36:39,540 --> 00:36:35,839 subjects top-notch world-class speakers 802 00:36:42,309 --> 00:36:39,550 low cost under $50 one-day conference 803 00:36:45,549 --> 00:36:42,319 discount rates are available before the 804 00:36:48,930 --> 00:36:45,559 15th of May to grab those early tickets 805 00:36:51,940 --> 00:36:48,940 and for more information visit skeptical 806 00:36:53,890 --> 00:36:51,950 con-com more just look for the links in 807 00:37:01,090 --> 00:36:53,900 this week's show notes 808 00:37:01,100 --> 00:37:18,430 [Music] 809 00:37:22,970 --> 00:37:20,839 thank you for listening to the skeptics 810 00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:22,980 are now news about the skeptic zone cats 811 00:37:26,589 --> 00:37:25,650 some of you may have noticed about a 812 00:37:29,859 --> 00:37:26,599 week ago 813 00:37:34,339 --> 00:37:29,869 Mord the skeptic zone cat one of them 814 00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:34,349 was looking up into the shelves the 815 00:37:38,539 --> 00:37:36,930 other day the other week and saw my 816 00:37:42,039 --> 00:37:38,549 little plaster statue of an alien 817 00:37:44,359 --> 00:37:42,049 playing a guitar yes a bit strange 818 00:37:47,599 --> 00:37:44,369 looked at it looked at it suddenly a 819 00:37:51,140 --> 00:37:47,609 poor shot up and boom and fell over and 820 00:37:52,849 --> 00:37:51,150 smashed into two and she was very 821 00:37:56,240 --> 00:37:52,859 pleased with herself anyway I've glued 822 00:37:58,250 --> 00:37:56,250 it back together so I've got a an alien 823 00:38:01,549 --> 00:37:58,260 hating cat living in the house if the 824 00:38:02,900 --> 00:38:01,559 aliens invade I'll be safe no maybe if 825 00:38:06,109 --> 00:38:02,910 they saw that photograph they won't 826 00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:06,119 invade hmm a big shout out to my friend 827 00:38:13,849 --> 00:38:09,210 Jamie Scott Eugenie Scott in California 828 00:38:16,039 --> 00:38:13,859 and I hope the skeptic al cond coming up 829 00:38:18,470 --> 00:38:16,049 in June will be a major success 830 00:38:21,260 --> 00:38:18,480 I really must try to see if I can get 831 00:38:23,990 --> 00:38:21,270 along to that folks I'd like to do that 832 00:38:26,510 --> 00:38:24,000 I'd like to go to skeptic Alcon in 833 00:38:28,670 --> 00:38:26,520 Berkeley Berkeley is quite nice I like 834 00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:28,680 the squirrels I think I go to San 835 00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:31,650 Francisco really to a to partake of the 836 00:38:35,510 --> 00:38:33,690 clam chowder and the salad Oh Bowl if 837 00:38:37,220 --> 00:38:35,520 you're going to San Francisco forget 838 00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:37,230 about the flowers in your hair folks 839 00:38:43,250 --> 00:38:39,930 have that sourdough bowl with the clam 840 00:38:44,900 --> 00:38:43,260 chowder mmm coming up soon on the 841 00:38:48,349 --> 00:38:44,910 skeptic zone we're going to be having 842 00:38:50,030 --> 00:38:48,359 reports via the raw skeptic Heidi 843 00:38:52,010 --> 00:38:50,040 Robinson up in the north coast of New 844 00:38:53,299 --> 00:38:52,020 South Wales and I think pretty soon 845 00:38:56,780 --> 00:38:53,309 we're going to be having another report 846 00:38:59,839 --> 00:38:56,790 from Mandy Lee noble the diet skeptic 847 00:39:03,200 --> 00:38:59,849 but for this week with no cats anyway 848 00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:03,210 what I can't see them anywhere I tell 849 00:39:05,990 --> 00:39:04,770 you what I did I went to a what we call 850 00:39:07,670 --> 00:39:06,000 a $2 shop 851 00:39:09,829 --> 00:39:07,680 you've probably got the same sort of 852 00:39:13,250 --> 00:39:09,839 thing in your neck of the woods this is 853 00:39:15,470 --> 00:39:13,260 a shop that sells very cheap usually 854 00:39:17,450 --> 00:39:15,480 Chinese imports mostly made had a 855 00:39:21,079 --> 00:39:17,460 plastic and get all sorts of things 856 00:39:22,240 --> 00:39:21,089 there and I bought a green back 857 00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:22,250 scratcher 858 00:39:31,260 --> 00:39:27,850 shoehorn in one for a 859 00:39:34,020 --> 00:39:31,270 and the cats have discovered or I have 860 00:39:35,670 --> 00:39:34,030 discovered that they just love it being 861 00:39:39,060 --> 00:39:35,680 scratched on the back and the tummy with 862 00:39:42,570 --> 00:39:39,070 a back scratcher maybe I should call 863 00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:42,580 this show the cap zone hmm anyway well I 864 00:39:47,100 --> 00:39:44,770 run away and scratch their backs this is 865 00:39:52,980 --> 00:39:47,110 Richard Saunders signing off from Sydney 866 00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:52,990 Australia you've been listening to the 867 00:40:01,260 --> 00:39:55,690 skeptic zone podcast please visit our 868 00:40:03,720 --> 00:40:01,270 website at WWDC for show notes contacts 869 00:40:07,770 --> 00:40:03,730 and to access the bat catalog of 870 00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:07,780 episodes going back to 2008 you can 871 00:40:12,540 --> 00:40:09,490 follow the skeptic zone podcast on 872 00:40:14,820 --> 00:40:12,550 twitter at skeptic zone visit our 873 00:40:15,710 --> 00:40:14,830 facebook page or leave a review on 874 00:40:18,390 --> 00:40:15,720 itunes 875 00:40:21,780 --> 00:40:18,400 you can also support the skeptic zone 876 00:40:24,500 --> 00:40:21,790 via patreon or PayPal the skeptic zone 877 00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:24,510 podcast is an independent production 878 00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:26,890 reviews and opinions expressed on the 879 00:40:31,350 --> 00:40:29,050 skeptic zone are not necessarily those 880 00:40:33,190 --> 00:40:31,360 of Australian skeptics or any other